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So, who else is mad about the new rules? A bit of rant on current rulings

Dueling rules, Links, extra decks

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#1 mnementh2000 Oldies Sir Post-a-lot 321 posts 0.00 XCB

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 03:25 PM

So, I haven't played, really, since Synchros first showed up on the scene, and would buy a pack here or there since then to keep an eye on the direction the game has taken. I was already upset that the meta game turned into who could copy the current top-ranked net deck out there and then pull the combo off first (normally on turns 1-3) against their opponent, also playing the same deck (Lightsworns and Six Spamurai were the worst at the time, with a smattering of Dark Armed Dragon decks), but with the advent of Synchros - and later XYZs and Pendulums - the stupidity of massive special summoning on the first turn or two skyrocketed to the point that the speed of the "game" (term used lightly here) went through the roof. At the time, there was a fairly decent outcry about this swing of the game, wanting it to slow down a bit, and at the time there was no end in sight.

 

Now comes along Link summons. Again, with the correct setup (not much planning or setting up really needed) you can special summon a new way, with a whole new monster zone to use. And, for a good thing (to some extent) it slows down the game a bit, making it harder to spam the field with monsters from the extra deck on at least turn 1 (without a godly opening hand). The problem is, with the new rulings, you basically have NO CHOICE but to play Link Monsters if you want to play multiple monsters from the extra deck. Extra deck monsters can only be played in the Extra Monster Zone, or one of the Main Monster zones that a Link Monster is pointing to. This means that, unless you play Link Monsters, You can ONLY play 1 Fusion/ XYZ/ Synchro monster at any one time (unless you can take both Extra Monster zones, I'm not too clear about that).

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for slowing the game down some, but to HAVE to play a particular type of card just to use your Extra Deck isn't the direction I think the game should go. What're the thoughts of the current players out there on this subject?


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#2 RiverShock Ancient One XC's Official Setmaker 4544 posts 86.00 XCB

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 03:42 PM

I wasn't fond of the concept prior to their release. But given the large variety of them that exist now, there really isn't a big issue. Most decks can accommodate them pretty easily, and they often ADD to the decks in some way. I don't think having to run them matters at all. Virtually every deck in existence can fit them in their Extra Deck, it's just harder to Summon them in a handful. Also, spamming Synchro/Xyz monsters is probably a little more harmful, since they're typically more powerful than the average Link monster. (Barring a few like Borreload Dragon or Trigate Wizard.) So it's probably a good thing that's less doable.

 

What I don't like is more how they made spam-a-ton-of-Links decks, and made floaters significantly more common. Resources are a lot less important now, given how many things refund resources when used or set up more Summons. Not a big fan of that trend.

 

Either way, I'd suggest actually trying the mechanic before you write it off.


Edited by RiverShock, 26 January 2018 - 03:43 PM.

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#3 warrain Ancient One The Force is here 2443 posts 157.00 XCB

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 10:44 PM

Yeah pretty much whay river said. Many of not most people didn't like the concept of link monsters and master rule 4, but all in all it's different and most of the haters have grown accustomed to it by now.

Not to mention that just like the other summoning mechanics, you don't actually NEED to use it. You can use other decks like rituals or even old school like dark world. Or even a deck that only needs 1 extra deck monster at a time. It's truly just preference
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#4 Yami Stomach Oldies Wut 9465 posts 690.00 XCB

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 02:45 PM

yeah, there's very few (read: no) decks out there rn that need multiple extra deck monsters out and if they do, they can accomodate links.

BA never need more than 1 dante/beatrice

Trickstar/Spyral use Links

ABC only need 1 Buster Cannon, and they found a stupid combo to get Decode Talker + 2 ABC on the first turn

 

don't knock it till you try it 


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#5 mnementh2000 Oldies Sir Post-a-lot 321 posts 0.00 XCB

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 02:07 PM

I understand that Links can be useful, and I'm not saying that they are purely evil, what I'm upset about is the extreme limitations imposed on ANY deck that you run that you don't have any in the Extra Deck. You claim that, really, there are few to almost no decks that can't run them, and, truthfully, you are correct, but without theme, some decks no longer function correctly. Examples are E Heroes, Evil Heroes, an older Blue-eyes deck I used to run (was able to summon 2 Ultimates at a time on a regular basis, and with the new support, would be able to summon more now, but without a Link monster, that's all shut down now). These decks THRIVE on being able to just begin Fusioning on a crazy scale quickly, with all the fusion and return support that is out there.And this doesn't even touch the massive summoning characteristics inherent in Synchros and XYZs, which were almost tailor-made for field spamming.

 

Again, I admit, the game needed to slow down quite a bit, what with all the Special Summon spamming that was going on, but to completely cripple whole decks unless they all run a particular card type seems like poor management to me. It's almost reminds me of what was done to ALL of the draw engines for Exodia decks. For them, it's almost better to play Necros or the other variants, as drawing into or searching for the individual pieces has become an exercise in luck only - or near futility.

 

I know, I'm ranting, but I've seen UpperDeck (when they owned the rights stateside), and later Konami, make some monumentally bad decisions on the game in general, certain card mechanics, and individual decks and cards in particular (Card of Sanctity, anyone?). I started playing about the mid-Metal Raiders era, and have watched the game's progression and evolution since then. I watched as it went from either a beat-down or defense strategy oriented game (with LaJinn, Summoned Skull, and BEWD being the preferred beat sticks, with a smattering of Man-Eater Bugs, Wall of Illusions, and Hane-Hanes for the control, no ban list (though there were still Limited and semi-limited cards), to the advent of almost entirely effect monster decks, to actual themed decks (Toons were one of the earliest!), and on to the era of extreme net-decking. Some of the changes I have lauded as good decisions (banning CED-EoE, as well as a few others, limiting many of the stronger cards in some way until counters came out later), and some I questioned the intentions or intelligence of the ones in charge, and then there are a very few that I believe were not very well thought out, and the shackling of ALL decks that want to use the Extra Deck but haven't included at least 1 Link monster falls into the last category. I will try planning on using them in any decks I build in the future, if I ever get back into the actual dueling again, as almost all decks make use of the Extra deck to some extent nowadays, but it doesn't mean I agree with this turn of the game.

 

Then again, maybe it would be better to just build a deck to completely shut down Special summons altogether, and limit the entire field to only what can be normal summoned the old-fashioned way. 'Course, do that and it catches on, then Konami would most likely step in and cripple THAT deck in some way; can't have their money cards being shut down too easily, now, can they? And Links, Synchros, XYZs, and most of the decks based on some sort of themed monster type rely on huge amounts of Special Summoning.


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#6 Zane Kamanako Oldies Executioner of Dark World. 5471 posts 6.00 XCB

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 11:33 AM

Personally I just don't have the funds to keep up with the meta as it is now, so me and my friends have a tendency to play by the older set of rules. As for my personal views on this, however, I'll admit Im biased in saying I'm not too fond of the rules myself. Most of my favorite decks (an A-to-Z deck, Red Dragon Archfiend, and a Speedroid deck I made for lolz until I realized how powerful they could be to name a few) that I built are shut down by this. The only deck I own that might hold a chance is Monarchs, and thats because I made a fairly basic build that uses a total of 0 extra deck cards and focus on the big pieces.

 

However, I have seen how bad the swarm is and do agree these are necessary precautions. As a thought bubble, maybe they couldve done a combo of 2 extra deck slots per player and a rule that you could only summon one Link Monster per turn instead of this. With how they changed Pendulums, its a plausibility something like this could happen in the future as well. Could be a while, though, if it ever happens, but its merely the thoughts of someone who doesnt do much professional play.


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#7 mnementh2000 Oldies Sir Post-a-lot 321 posts 0.00 XCB

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 03:47 AM

I agree. As I stated previously, the new field and summoning rulings and restrictions darn near KILL several decks, as you then have a bloody almost impossible time getting out the required cards, if at all. A to Z decks are MURDERED by this ruling, as well as any other deck that requires multiple Extra Deck cards for either full effect or to summon something else, unless you play Links.

 

My wife and I haven't played in YEARS, and aren't likely to again at this rate. She already dropped out of the dueling scene just prior to Synchros, and swore to never TOUCH anything like Synchros, XYZs, Pendulums, and now Links. As she stated to me and a few of our old buddies, the 'game' is no longer enjoyable to her in it's current form. Not only is it too fast and reliant on drawing the right cards on the opening hand, or else the person quits the duel after 2-3 turns (can't count the number of times that has happened, or the number of DIFFERENT people who had done so - some who were supposedly responsible adults), but, in her words, the 'game' has become too bogged down with errata rulings, new rules, changed card wordings and thus effects, and has become so cumbersome and complex, that it is no longer enjoyable to her. We still talk about strategies and deck ideas and improvements at times, but only inasmuch as it would apply to pre-Synchro rules.

 

It really says something when someone who REALLY enjoyed a game, hobby, sport, or whatever, claims that the activity is no longer enjoyable when the changes become so great that the activity only slightly resembles the original, and has evolved to the point that it's hard to recognize anymore - not to mention all the NEW rules and altered rulings on known things. Don't get me wrong, I do still like to tinker with decks every so often, but it becomes harder to find the enjoyment when nearly everything that made the game fun has been buried under a mountain of bad decisions. Links - and their associated rules and rulings - fit under this category, as they fundamentally alter the game play, and not in a good way. I agreed with the rulings that the decks had a maximum size, when it was instituted years ago (from unlimited, to 80 max, and then 60 later), as decks were oftentimes unwieldy, and it made it bad when there were thefts of the decks that had 100+ cards, some of which were expensive, but this alteration has changed the game play in a bad direction, which effectively kills several decks, and severely neuters others.

 

It's like turning around and saying that the GY or Banished zones can only be accessed once per turn, unless you go out and incorporate one specific type of card into the deck, and then you could only do so a certain number of times, depending on what the card does or states. The effect would be similar to what is happening here. MANY types of decks and effects would instantly become difficult at best, and unplayable at worst.


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#8 RiverShock Ancient One XC's Official Setmaker 4544 posts 86.00 XCB

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Posted 04 February 2018 - 04:54 AM

...Not sure what you were expecting coming back into the game after being out of it for a decade, then. Times change. It's not like La Jinn was a good card by the end of the GX era, even though it was one of the best monsters in the game in the beginning. Trading card games in particular need to evolve over time. They get more complex out of necessity, not just for the hell of it. Yeah, it makes it harder for people that dropped out to return, but... It's mostly on that person's willingness to get used to the changes. You can't expect the game to stagnate until you decide to rejoin.

 

Personally, I don't get how people can just go "oh, screw that mechanic, I quit". Not even trying to understand them or try them for themselves. Just deciding "screw that, I can't be bothered". If you couldn't give Synchros a chance back when you DID supposedly enjoy the game, I'd hazard a guess that you were already no longer interested in it.


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#9 mnementh2000 Oldies Sir Post-a-lot 321 posts 0.00 XCB

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Posted 05 February 2018 - 03:01 PM

I have no problem with a game evolving, and new things being tried. I did play Synchros, and have since learned how XYZs work, as well as Pendulums (for the most part, at least as much as possible without actually dueling). It was my wife that swore off of them. However, what I am ranting on is the fundamental alterations in the game that this new monster and all it's associated rulings encompass, and what they may mean for the future.

 

I understand that games change and evolve, they have to to remain a draw for new players, and add variety for the older ones who choose to remain. And, truth be told, I would have no problem with link monsters, IF PART OF THEIR MONSTER EFFECT was what limited the availability and access to the Extra Deck, not the complete alteration of a whole game mechanic that has been around SINCE THE BEGINNING. We deal with card effects on a regular basis that do this (Gravekeeper's with Necrovalley, other cards that negate discarding or access to the deck or GY or Banished piles, etc.), and another SET of card types that, by their own effects on the field, limited access to the Extra Deck would not raise a problem. Heck we faced changes in the way the game was played when Effect monsters took center stage, when monster clans (if you will) such as Toons, Red-Eyes, Noble Knights, Traptrix, Lightsworn, etc took the limelight, when new summoning types such as Rituals, Synchros, and others emerged, and when the advent of playing the GY and Banished zones as another type of deck swept the scene.

 

No, it's the fact that, now, unless you find a way to acquire and incorporate these cards into your Extra Deck (which was getting interesting to try limiting the good cards that were available to choose from already, and getting larger with every set and monster that was to be placed in a 15 card max deck), you now lose access to all but ONE card at any one time from the deck, AS A GAME RULE. THAT is the problem I have with this new setup, and why I'm ranting. Konami should have made it part of the rulings that if one of these Link monsters were on the field, then access was limited until you got your own out, or some such, not that it's that way all the time. That way, you could find a way around this obstacle, which is part of the whole concept of the game - overcoming your opponant's moves. Heck they could even state that the Extra Monster zones are only available to the Link monsters, much as Field zones are only to be used for Field Spells.

 

Again, I have no problem with 'progress' or change, to a certain extent. Just don't alter the game so much that it's off-putting for newer or returning players. Don't alter the underlying concepts and mechanics of the game to where your already existing know;edge becomes almost completely useless. As I said, if the mechanic was altered by card effect, that's one thing, something we already deal with, but to completely rewrite the whole game just for the need to purchase a new card type and play it, is poor company and game management. In online gaming, this would be called a cash-grab, and in-game purchasing, which has little purpose other than to boost your money intake, with little to no care for those that are involved in the gaming aspect.


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#10 n00bdragon Team XC Alignment: Lawful Cynical 3154 posts 17.00 XCB

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Posted 05 February 2018 - 06:09 PM

The problem was that design space was severely running out for YGO. The game has accelerated over the years to the point where it's almost impossible to print interesting new cards unless they proc ten tutor effects, and destroy everything your opponent controls along with their deck, their family, and everyone they've ever loved, and has over 9000 attack power. The game needed to be toned down. Maybe Links weren't the most elegant way to do it, but the outrage and the pain would have been the same no matter what they did it. Personally, I don't think Links went far enough. The game needs an absolute reset. They'd be better off printing a Yugioh 2 with better thought out design and going from there.


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#11 Gerdat14 Oldies Some Dude 2686 posts 159.00 XCB

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Posted 06 February 2018 - 06:34 AM

Alright, so, I'm an idiot but I'm not mad about the rule changes overall. Honestly, I like the ability to have 2 different field spells up, and the making of Pendulum Spells into normal spell slots was a good but strange call. What i don't like is the whole "Links have slowed down the game and extra deck monsters are less viable" attitude. Mostly because it's flat out untrue. Oh, sure, that's what was supposed to happen, but it didn't. About 2 weeks before links were even released tcg side, we had a 3 card combo that netted a full field of decently powerful link monsters (Namely, triple Firewall Dragon), and i do mean a FULL FIELD. As in, you could actually have 6 link monsters on the field using just 3 cards. The abuse is still there to be had, and Konami won't address it because despite it being amazingly stupid, it's not actually powerful/ seeing meta play. I'll edit this later with that video showing off Lonefire blossom exploding into 5 link monsters.


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#12 Yami Stomach Oldies Wut 9465 posts 690.00 XCB

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 06:45 AM

oh that's not even the height of it, i've seen 3 Quasar, 2 Blazar and a Stardust Sifir Divine dragon out in a single turn before. 

 

but i do agree with what Zane said, i mean just look at the most recent banlist. Blackwing gofu banned, dandylion banned, firewall dragon limited grinder golem limited, i wouldnt be surprised if scapegoat goes back on the list at some point. 

 

the point is Links can and will be abused, all they did was "Slow down" older decks (barely) to make room for newer decks so more people would have to buy their newer sets and cards to play competitively.

 

the name Komoney means something after all. 


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#13 Jesse Team XC Head Admin 5521 posts 433.00 XCB

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 11:19 AM

If you want to play casually with your wife, you don't have to adopt the official rules. If I ever play with my brother, we just use the rules prior to Link Summoning.

 

The point of a game is so that the people playing it get enjoyment out of it. If you prefer to use old rules (just think of them as house rules) then go for it. The reason there's even a forum here was from the enjoyment of the game. We all want everyone to enjoy it. But people enjoy it differently. Competitive games are really different. You can't play competitive without following the rules, the ban list, etc. So competitive isn't for you. Unfortunately, most players play with competitive decks using competitive rules, and even if they don't, they're not going to expect otherwise vs someone random online.

 

I don't see how you can call changing the rules a cash-grab. Maybe, at most, it is a slap in the face to those who supporting the game up until now but refuse to support any longer. But if a rule change upsets some players, how can you say they're just doing it for the money? That doesn't make sense. Releasing a powerful card and then banning it, sure. But changing a rule to slow the game down a bit, or make it so Player 1 doesn't get such a big advantage... cash-grab? 

 

Why are you upset about this?

 

You can play the game how you like, there's no Yugioh police that will come to your house and throw you in jail for playing against the rules. If you want a 50 card Extra Deck, with 4 copies per card, go ahead and play like that in your own home.


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#14 Yami Stomach Oldies Wut 9465 posts 690.00 XCB

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 07:56 PM

Links as a concept ARE a cash grab. at least  so far. i mean look at the following.

 

1. most relevant decks in this format use links in some way

2. almost every "good" link was high rarity and expensive af, Firewall Dragon and SPYRAL Double Helix come to mind

3. a lot of decks that were still functioning well by the tail end of the last format like Zoodiac and Pend Magicians got gutted hard by Link format without adjusting to it. Pend Magicians were a bit better off since they got Heavymetalfoes Electrumite to help them. which is high rarity expensive AF. bringing me back to Point 2. 


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#15 warrain Ancient One The Force is here 2443 posts 157.00 XCB

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 01:03 AM

Ok so I guess I feel a need to put my 2 cent in as someone who bout only still plays but also builds decks to sell to others.
Master rule 4 as it's known is not that bad. We've had it for almost a full year now. Yes link monsters changed things up quite a bit and a few synchro/ fusion/XYZ heavy decks were hurt by the introduction of these new rules, but that's just out. They WERE just hurt. Trust me they're not hurting as much anymore. Some of the key link monsters may still be harder to get but there are ship many others. Just change up the strategy some. Just a month ago Zefra were pretty much dead (not that they really worked to begin with) but in this new set there's cards that gave them such new life that Zefra may become meta now.
I'm trying to say the game since the very beginning has been evolving and changing as it's been the duelists job to change and adapt to it. And like with Impractical Jokers, if you refuse, you lose. Then again I have a perfectly fine gravekeepers deck that hasn't really changed in over a year and it works fine. Look up YouTube videos of duels and decks and conversations. You can ease back into the game. You can learn how the mechanics work. You can play and know how the new stuff works without HAVING to use them and still be tournament legal. All you have to do is not be an outright quiter...
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#16 El Zeta Oldies Sir Post-a-lot 331 posts 16.00 XCB

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 05:45 PM

Honestly? I don't care. I abandoned the game with the first generation (I was a casual back then, if I'm honest), but then I returned and I fell in love with Pendulums, whih makes a bit of sense as between my first time and my current time, I ended up on harder drugs (i.e. MtG), so summoning a lot of monsters in one turn was fine. I never became good at it, probably because I play for fun. About links... well, I probably will feel the same as I do with Pendulums now. They'll be the next cool thing later. Yes, it will make my pendulum deck slow down, but I still can play it (I run Odd-Eyes with Performapal and Magicians for support, so eh...)


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