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Forbidden Lists Discussion

Started by russianspy1234 , Oct 26 2005 12:18 AM

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5166 replies to this topic

#61 Guest_XXXPlizit_*

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Posted 25 November 2005 - 03:08 AM

Decree is not a problem.  However, it it WERE a problem, it still won't solve things once restricted as a much worse consequence pops up: BURN ABUSE!

Cyber Stein + Cyber OTK is not a big deal as the opposing player is given time to respond back.  The banning of Ring settled that entire dispute.  Keep in mind that Cyber Stein decks become risky due to the 5000 cost.  With a less chance of drawing, EVEN in 3's, the odds go against it.

DDA should be in 1 or 2.  Three is currently devastating as the card itself is like a brick wall somewhat like how Reflect Bounder is.

Cyber Dragon is still questionable.  With Goblin Elites and other ways around it, it may or may not be THAT abusive.

Witch coming back would make Konami force a crapload of bans.  Of course, that would make Jinzo too strong and banning Jinzo would make Burn too abusive, even with Decrees in 3's.  In other words, no can do.  We got enough searchers already.

= = =

Out of anything, I believe Konami should just bash the Last Turn + Jowgen combo by banning the COMBO itself.  Otherwise, just restrict ALL cards involved to lessen the chance.  Not only does it make no sense (seriously), but allowing an FTK (NOT OTK) nullifies the concept of skill.

= = =

Tyranno Kenzan, on Nov 24 2005, 02:10 PM, said:

i want them to unban mirage you have to discard randomly so its not broken

You do realize that Mirage comboes very well with specific cards to a point where discarding isn't needed, right? If not, no offense but you lack the knowledge of why most cards are restricted (or banned) in the first place.

#62 Guest_Zero34_*

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Posted 25 November 2005 - 08:17 AM

yeah, that 5000 point thing just tells you to burn to attack as fast as possible. 4900 lp will slow your opponent down drastically, because they will have to focus on recovering instead of the offense

DDA = definitely abused

cyber dragon = used a lot, but im not sure if its to the point of overwhelming

lol xxx, bring back witch, ban jinzo, burn goes crazy, ... one big problem loop

last turn isnt FTK, its a trap. it needs one turn, but it is very powerful. restricting the combo is a bad idea though because that would add new rules that affect more than just those two cards

mirage + dark world...i think i dont need to explain any further

#63 Guest_XXXPlizit_*

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Posted 25 November 2005 - 04:41 PM

Though it is considered a OTK, Last Turn acts as an FTK because the opposing player isn't given a chance to respond at all via card activation (see Scientist and Elma banning). The only way to stop the OTK (or FTK-ish combo) is to draw some of the few existing side-decking emergency cards.

The problem with Last Turn is that Konami/UDE added numerous rulings to it. They added the Jowgen + Last Turn ruling just recently (a few months par se) considering that the cards themselves were released years ago (where they SHOULD have posted such ruling to prevent confusion). Then again, if they can't ban the combo itself (though it would save headaches), then they could just limit all the cards being used, at the cost of nullifying their usefulness in unbrokenly different ways.

= = =

:lol:

Zero34! Let's go bring back witch and ban Jinzo so that we can light a torch up our @sses!...yeps, it's a big problem considering that Konami started making too many powerful traps that tries to bypass Jinzo's (or Decree's) power, yet never considering a possible ban against Jinzo. Now, it's even harder to ban it even with other anti-trap alternatives with all the abusive traps available.

#64 Guest_Zero34_*

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Posted 25 November 2005 - 08:40 PM

lol xxx

lets bring back BLS, CED, and yata while we're at it too!!

and why stop there? i mean, raigeki, harpie, and mirage too!!

how much could they possibly hurt the meta?

XD

if i could have just one card off of the restrited list...it would be protecter of the sancutuary. that card needs to be at 2. adds a new deck theme. the card is basically too difficult to work at 1. 2 is reasonable

#65 Drakul

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Posted 25 November 2005 - 11:04 PM

Zero34, on Nov 24 2005, 11:05 PM, said:

royal decrees could still be a problem, but i doubt that

i still find 12 monsters to be almost impossible.  i mean...ridiculously incredible if it actually happened.  if it does, i bow down to you

*bows*

and maruading only has 2000.  which is still a lot, meh

okay, that deck size makes more sense.  because if you could fit all of those solemns, jammers, reload, giant, and etc all in a 40 card deck i would be quite amazed.  reasonable size for those cards

interesting.  a lot of new ideas have revealed themself to me in this page..
but still, that millenium scorpion deck of yours intrigues me.  you duel YVD?  i cant host, but i can hamachi.  id really like to duel you

heh it's not a matter of bowing or anything like that, it's just a matter of either having good draws or having reload replace bad ones *grins*. a couple of jammers and drains really don't take much space, that's a total of 7 traps with solemns, plus torrential, plus decree. Most people run 6-7 traps in their decks anyway, just different ones than I do.

I don't YVD much anymore, fixing to start new job, baby on the way in a couple of months, and, the most important, I don't have my own computer right now

When I do tho I'll look to contact you. If you have MSN messenger send me the IM name in a pm and I'll add you once I have one.

#66 Guest_XXXPlizit_*

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Posted 25 November 2005 - 11:24 PM

LOL.....Or EVEN worse!  Let's have ALL cards in 3's.  O boy, imagine upset customers for that.  XD

Anyways, to be serious.

I believe the only reason why Protector is EVEN in the list in the first place was because of the Jar-raping combo (heh, Jar-raping).  The cards involved Morphing Jar, Moon, Taiyou, and Night Assailant, thus probably yet another reason why they were in 1's.  However, with practically all the cards needed to use for such abuse restricted to 1 in addition to Pot and Graceful banned, I don't see why this is in 1's, but perhaps semi-restrict in case.

And on a side note relating to why it doesn't deserve to be in 1's, cards that make your opponent draw DO NOT WORK AS COMBOES in this scenario as it's either illegal-ruling (Card Destruction) or activated during the draw phase in which players CAN draw (Reload) thus NOT making it a combo.  Morphing Jar is one of the few cards to bypass that ruling according to UDE.

Edited by XXXPlizit, 26 November 2005 - 04:14 AM.

#67 Guest_Zero34_*

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 04:09 AM

lol

*shudders of the thought at CED and BLS back to unlimited...*

really?  huh, i have to check up on that ruling on protector

and drakul, good luck to you.  i shall wait here, patiently

what cards do work with protector?  i can only think of like, morphing jar mainly.  anything else that could potentially lead to a deck?

#68 Guest_XXXPlizit_*

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 12:59 AM

I was checking UDE's site on the card.  And yes, cards like Card Destruction do not work.

So far, Morphing Jar was specified as a bypass, according to UDE.  I am unsure if cards like Sacred Crane works.

As for Protector, I believe that its restriction was also due to Drop Off and Time Seal comboes.  Then again, people can STILL draw with Jars of Greed and Reckless as long as they activate during the draw phase as well as using cards like Reasoning as they 'pick up' rather than 'draw'.  I am unsure about CotH + Sacred Crane during the Draw Phase.

#69 Guest_Zero34_*

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Posted 27 November 2005 - 08:25 AM

what the...card of destruction doesnt work?

all the more reason to bring it back!

and i dont see why book of T has to be limited. that is kinda extreme. semi is enough

#70 The Cyber Demon Lord

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 05:32 AM

Cards we may get back:

Imperial Order
In traditional times, there were only very few cards that could stop it:

Breaker
Mystical Space Typhoon
Dust Tornado
Jinzo

Nowadays, we have

Breaker
Moebius
Mystical Space Typhoon
Dust Tornado
Jinzo
Royal Decree
Sacred Phoenix
Dark Catapulter
Swarm of Locusts
Hell Flame Emperor
Levia / Neo Daedalous
...

Another Card we may get back is
Yata Garasu
Yes, it is a super-broken card, but brining it back will change the Meta in a positive way. It will be much more controllish instead of just beatdown. And we still have some cards to counter him (confiscation, sakusetsu, ...). For the rest, people being able to think out of the box will be able to get rid of him easily (Skill Drain, Deck Devastation, Water technique, Thestalos, D.D. Designator, King Tiger Whangu...)

Cards that should be banned:

Breaker, the Magical Warrior
Everybody knows it: a 1900 4-Star beater with an incorporated M/T removal should not be allowed. Even if he wastes his effect on a chainable trap, you just forced your opponent to use it.

Edited by The Cyber Demon Lord, 28 November 2005 - 05:33 AM.

#71 Guest_Zero34_*

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 05:41 AM

breaker shouldnt be banned.  this is one good card that has been with us for a long time and losing him wouldnt make sense.  he isnt THAT powerful.  and without the s/t removal, burn would become to dominant

imperial is tempting.  i can see it coming back.  i am actually not to sure why it left in the first place...

and you actually bring up the interesting discussion with yata.  i really like your argument, but i dbout many others will agree on the bring yata back thing

#72 Nin

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 09:37 AM

1 of the reason's was it's combo lock with Jinzo and Amplifier.

And the fact that it's a mere 700- per turn to negate any and ALL spell cards used.

Yes, we do have alot of s/t destruction we use, but we'll just see.

Only way IO will come off is if we had a Spell Dominant Meta like April's (Which surprised me that it didn't come off...)

Cards that came come off:

Mirror Force
Tribe-Infecting Virus

Only things, just because they're swarm stoppers. But, it's not up to us to make the ban list, it's up to them.

#73 n00bdragon

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 09:57 AM

Imperial Order got the shaft because its a costless magic jammer for the entire turn, or longer if you decide to pay its meager cost. Its effect is about as restrictive to play as Mirror Wall with a cost that is only 1/3 the size to maintain. I could see a non-continuous look-alike coming along which negated all magic for that turn and had a 1500 lp activation cost.

As for my preferences for the next list:
Cyber Dragon to 2
DD Assailant to 1
Reinforcement of the Army to 1
Dark Hole to 0
Mirror Force to 1
Sakuretsu Armor to 2
Widespread Ruin to 2
Heavy Storm to 0
Mystical Space Typhoon to 3

Okay, now I know you think this is blasphemy or something but give me a chance to explain.

Reinforcement of the Army: Warriors are just in absolute domination right now. The reason they dominate is because its so easy to search out the monsters they need at the right time. Limiting Reinforcement of the Army would severly curtail the amount of toolbox warriors can pull out when they need it unless they want to rely on Freed, which requires considerably more resources to keep alive and keep working but his effect could really keep Warriors toolboxing like they need to be to work.

DD Assailant: Just too abused, having three in one deck is insane and even though I only have two myself (damn buggers are hard as hell to get ahold of) just the presence of two of them gives me a dominating advantage over those around me who don't have more than one. The guy is terrifying. With 1700 atk he is an able beatstick capable of tearing through most defenses and anything that is strong enough to beat him gets wiped from the game. He's super potent on the offense or the defense and something about that just doesn't ring right to me.

Dark Hole: Dark Hole doesn't really slow good swarm down much more than Mirror Force. Sure, you can't nail yourself with Mirror but who nails themselves with Dark Hole unless they are at an obvious disadvantage field wise?

Heavy Storm and Mystical Space Typhoon: Its a shame that people are too afraid to set down more than two trap cards these days. You should be able to lay down five and feel mostly secure in your investment of protection. Of course, with the removal of Heavy Storm the game would be severely lacking in S/T removal and Burn would seem to take a big jump in power but if you throw three MSTs into the mix and it seems like it would even out. Spell and Trap removal can remain a potent part of the game while becoming less of "Your field asplode...I = winnar!" when someone drops a Heavy Storm. The possibility of 2 for 1, or maybe even 3 for 1 against a careless opponent is just too strong for today's meta.

#74 Guest_Zero34_*

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 10:31 AM

but who would run amplifier for jinzo?  thats one of the worst forms of deck management...but jinzo + imperial is already enough lockdown

is spell negation for one turn THAT bad?  i mean, spells are nearly as important as monsters in this format so its possible that IO comes back

mirror is a toughie.  same with tribe.  they may be too powerful in a card advantage meta

Cyber Dragon: this card isnt abused enough to be semi.  its just a beatstick with speed.  not powerful enough for restrictions
DD Assailant: i think everyone agrees on this
Reinforcement of the Army: meh, 2 or 1?  i wont comment on this
Dark Hole: for mirror
Mirror Force: see above
Sakuretsu Armor: its one for one
Widespread Ruin: above
Heavy Storm: possible...doubt it though
Mystical Space Typhoon: to 3 is highly unlikely, but to 1 in exchange for banning heavy is possible

i like your heavy and MST idea

#75 ArthursKnight

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 01:05 PM

WTF is up with all this Last Turn hate? Leave it just as it is.
When has Last Turn made any kind of significant standing in any competative event?
I rest my case.

The same applies to Burn in any incarnation. When it starts WINNING TOURNAMENTS is when it gains notice. if it starts winning all the tournaments, then something has to be done about it.

If you're losing to tier 2 decks consistantly, you really need to re-evaluate your deck, sidedeck, and playstyle.

Edited by ArthursKnight, 28 November 2005 - 01:08 PM.

#76 Guest_XXXPlizit_*

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 02:45 PM

A card that might come back is Makyura.  Sure, there is a possible FTK with it, but then again, there are ways to prevent it (or nullify it completely) by doing more re-exchanging with cards needed to prevent Makyura's reason of banning in the first place.

Another possible card that could come back is Graceful.  Yes, it's 3-out-of-the-deck, but come to think of it, specific decks that use the graveyard were hammered due to draw cards banned.  With BLS/CED out of the way, it can give room for other decks.

In addition, Mirror Force might get uplifted.  The only reason why it was banned currently was of Dark Hole back.  However, with swarm control raging this format, it would be somewhat logical despite other mass remvals in existence.

And of course, a possibility is Elma.  The only way this'll happen is if Gearfried and Royal Magical Library were restricted to 1 to prevent the infinte loop which sometimes result in FTK.

= = =

I highly doubt Yata coming back.  Not that it's impossible, but it is difficult to make his uplift balanced as there are still major negatives.  Using the current list as an example, control is pretty dominant and adding Yata to this would worsen the situation.  Not that I am saying that Control is broken as it can be countered by other decks (Wanghu, etc.), but using such example is pretty invalid as you are dealing with an entire deck itself rather than a single-card.  Of course, you actually have Dark Hole in the scenery, which isn't good.  The only possible way to actually revive Yata off the list is by banning mass removal (except for Mirror Force), ban searchers that bring him out too quick (Sangan), restrict Don Zaloog and Spirit Reaper due to their effects, restrict other deck-thinners, bring back Pot and Graceful, and hammer out control tactics.  It's quite a lot of work, but it's possible.

Breaker is good as is.  Banning it wouldn't be too logical as this list, though is more beneficial due to lack of s/t, lost some power with this list.

Tribe, I actually agree on.  The reason why it is a possible uplift is for a good reason: This format itself outlaws discarding.

= = =

ArthursKnight, on Nov 28 2005, 06:11 PM, said:

The same applies to Burn in any incarnation. When it starts WINNING TOURNAMENTS is when it gains notice. if it starts winning all the tournaments, then something has to be done about it.

Though that is the case and reason why bans are thought carefully, sometimes people think "AHEAD" before possible outcomes occur.

Take a look at the banning of Makyura. A lot of people didn't know the card was released in the Dark Beginnings packages until they realized it was 'banned' without knowing its potential. Imagine the previous list with Makyura unbanned.

Or Exchange of the Spirit's restriction BEFOREHAND. A deck was going to be built around it until Konami thought ahead of a possible brokenness if ran in 2's and 3's.

Edited by XXXPlizit, 28 November 2005 - 05:03 PM.

#77 Guest_Zero34_*

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Posted 28 November 2005 - 04:17 PM

if makyura came back, exchange of the spirit might become to powerful, not to mention a lot of other decks that i cant remember that rely on trap speed

graceful...meh. its 3 cards and combined with dark world...yeah. i think i can stop there. massive abuse. <_<

definitely mirror back.  dark hole is way better than mirror

okay, this discussion about elma has been brought up a lot and i really cant see the logic

why limit two cards that arent even near broken or even tier 3 playable?  i mean, i have never seen a gearfried played.  there are a lot of better cards.  royal is more likely, but even then you dont see that card a lot.

elma has a lot of other abilities too.  some of which can be abused like recycling advantage.  that is kinda too good, expecially because its free.

so im definitely against the limiting of gear and royal, that would be very pointless.

and yeah, good point.  yata is easily one of the best control/beatdown cards in the game along side one of my persoanal favorite cards IFL.  too good to come back now that i think about it

#78 ArthursKnight

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Posted 01 December 2005 - 01:06 PM

Quote

Actually, there was no thinking ahead in that case. UDE at that time copied Konami's ban list card for card, regardless of weather or not we actually had the card yet. Makyura and Exchange of the Spirits were unlimited for quite a long time in japan, them semi limited as the deck started to get out of hand. The bannings and restrictions seemed preemptive to us, but were really quite long in the coming.

#79 Guest_Zero34_*

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Posted 01 December 2005 - 04:55 PM

you know, that brings up a good point

i seriously think that we should have a different ban list than japan. one completely separate to us. cards shouldnt be banned or restricted untnil it actually shows abuse. for example, makyura hadnt even seen abuse yet. i wouldve like to use it at least once....