5166 replies to this topic

[DarkBlaze557]

I think we mainly just disagree on Brionac's use. Inzektors generate advantage left and right, being a minimum of a +2 every turn, and often can be a +4.

Brionac isn't an advantage generator at all. He wipes fields for game-ending strikes. If you can't do that in the turn that he wipes the field, you're boned. They still have access to all of said cards (unless he hits a synchro or xyz monster). Inzektors are not the same way at all. They destroy and disrupt left and right, not just in one gigantic swoop. And once again - where are these "boss monsters" you speak of? Inzektors often push for the greatest amount of damage simply by swarming themselves and using their equip effects, often times combined with a Giga-Brilliant.

The Inzektor decks that use Synchros are often considered "bad" for a myriad of reasons, and I think the results of the last two YCS tournaments in the past couple of weeks help to support that. Sure, you'll see it on DN. But you'll also see a Yubel-Hero-Exodia-Chain Burn deck on DN.

[Cyberlancer]

So are we agreeing to disagree on Brionac? xD

Boss Monsters I speak of are things such as BLS, CS, and DAD.  
Yes, I have seen people swarm with Inzektors and push for game, but I have mostly seen them being used to set up plays to use other cards and/or XYZ summon for better monsters.

[DarkBlaze557]

I guess I mostly just want to see where you are getting your ideas from here. Are you seeing these plays at competitive tournaments, on YVD/DN, at locals? Perhaps that will help me to understand where you're coming from.

[Cyberlancer]

I have seen it on DN on high ranked duels with people who knew what they were doing and I have seen some competitive videos on Youtube showing Inzektors in this use.  Plus, I have play tested Inzektors in a few different styles that allowed for these results.  I make note that I have not used a pure Inzektor deck, nor a Windzektor deck.

EDIT: So maybe 1/4 of these ideas come from actual playing with the Archetype.

Edited by Cyberlancer, 01 March 2012 - 04:07 PM.

[Gerdat14]

*Is a noob a noob who still thinks recurvise destruction is bad for the game as a whole*

[Mattimis]

So now that we're about a week into the new banlist, I wonder if anyone has any thoughts about it.

Personally, I'm liking this banlist. Nothing's really overpowered (because the 3 top tier decks seem to be able to be shut down quite easily), though I feel like that banning both Spore/Glow-Up Bulb was a bit unnecessary for this banlist. Would've been nice to see a plant-based deck this format.

[SyncTempest]

Glow-Up Bulb wasn't that bad because it was once per duel effect. Spore was probably a little more dangerous. Also, most of the meta game decks can be shut down easily with Effect Veiller. Now we're seeing a lot more hybrids like Inzektor Agents. Of course they all have to include Tour Guide for some reason. That bring get hit soon.

[Narikku]

Alright, so after playing this format for about half of a month, I believe I have a feel on just how powerful decks are this format.  Inzektors, Wind-Ups, and Dino-Rabbit, the supposed Tier 1 Trio are seemingly extremely powerful. After playing these games, I’ve realized a few things about them, primarily, the fact that, although these decks are VERY strong early game players, they seem to lack the oomph to let the game last more than 6 turns (Your turn being first, your opponent’s being second.) An early game Warning or Veiler just screws their entire method, and if you can get a big beater on the field, usually just over 2500 (Stardust seems pretty effective), and just set a few Traps, then you’re pretty much safe, at least against most players. Inzektors still have that come-back ability, though, with all their Dark Support. This, however, is ignoring BLS and other such “staple” Monsters.

Wind-ups do their Shenanigans, discard your hand and slowly peck you to death with their respectable attack, and massive advantage they gained over you. Maxx “C” and Effect Veiler work perfectly, however not everyone can afford a Maxx “C”. With this being, really, the only effective card against a Wind-up deck if they go first besides Veiler, it makes competitive playing such a toll. If you can stop them first turn, though, at least from my experiences, it is an easy win from there. Overall, the deck is strong first turn, but does not have much of a come-back ability if their initially plays are stopped. Unless they lucksack you and by going first, discard your hand, any good player with a decent deck should be able to easily get around it. With no real recycling method besides Rat, it makes them difficult to come back. Skill Drain works great, I’ve found, as well as Compulsory Evacuation Device and Fiendish Chain. Macro Cosmos//Dimensional Fissure screws the deck-loop over as well.

Dino Rabbit is a cool deck, being that 1900 Vanillas are being used again. xD With Photon Shockwave releasing this card as a preview, I already knew it was broken, especially once I saw Evolkaiser Ragia. I built the deck, without Tour Guides, and it had a problem with Defense and comeback mechanics, again, the same as the first deck, Tour Guide helps fix this with Leviair and Zenmaines, though. But since the new Priority ruling has not hit the TCG yet, a simple Effect Veiler against this deck. In fact, without some sort of trap set, (Ryko, Compulsory, Etc.), Effect Veiler doesn’t do you much good until they summon Tour Guide. The deck is pretty well balanced, especially since they have such a high percentage rate of drawing either a Rabbit or a Tour Guide in their first hand.  Overall, I’ve found that certain Trap choices (besides staples) have worked beautifully against this deck. Compulsory has been wonderful, especially when bouncing a Vanilla, or hell, bouncing their random Tour Bus/Sangan to hand can be pretty lulzy too.  Fiendish Chain, and Compulsory work great, not so much Macro and Dimensional Fissure though. It kills their hand traps, but doesn’t really kill much else. Prohibition, if you can protect it, works well, but with 3 MST, I’m a bit iffy on it. Personally, I like Smashing Ground, lol.

Inzektors can be a bit of trouble. I believe they have great synergy with themselves, and being Dark gives them a ton of support. Unless you can stop Dragonfly, they pretty much got you. They have recursive destruction, defense in the form of Zenmaines, and basically, they are the control deck of the format from how I see it.  Since they can eliminate Hand Traps with Dimensional Fissure (while also screwing several other decks in the process), the ability to prepare themselves for next turn if they do go off, and the fact that any non-chainable trap is pretty much worthless against them, it makes them a tough cookie to chew. Compulsory seems to work well, but ultimately, you need to get that Hornet removed from play. Chaining D.D. Crow to Dragonfly’s/Centipede’s effect sucks though, because they don’t target the card, they could just attach a Hornet from hand instead. :/ Fiendish Chain works wonders, though. The only real problem is they rely heavily on that Hornet. IF your deck can main Macro Cosmos, I say do it.

The only card that REALLY seems problematic to me this format is Wind-Up Zenmaines. If your deck does not have the ability to get around that card, then you are pretty much screwed. Without Trishula, very many Synchro decks lost their easy-out to Zenmaines, and it pretty much requires you to main either Cyber Dragon (least preferable), Caius, Compulsory Evacuation Device, or Fiendish Chain to get around it if they summon it first turn. Brionac still works, but that discard is really difficult to deal with, especially since most decks can’t make a Brionac on the spot. And even if you did bounce it, most decks that use it can just summon it again in less than a turn, making your Compulsory nearly useless unless you attacked for game. Certain decks, like Hero Beat, have a very hard time getting around the 2100 Defense Monstrosity. It takes 3 Cards to kill it, unless your Banish or Bounce it, and with every deck deciding “Oh hey, let’s run Tour guide!” because the 3 Star Xyz are just too applicable, it just makes it way too easy to spam.  All three of these top tier decks are running Tour Guide and Zenmaines, and it just makes it too difficult to get past unless you are running the appropriate methods.

Honestly, although they’ve had a lot of trouble with consistency, I think that Dark Worlds could make an easy appearance topping this format. They are basically immune to Effect Veiler, Deck Devastation destroys all three if it goes off (not to mention killing Maxx “C”), They can main deck Skill Drain, which again, destroys the meta and requires MST’s to really have trouble against them. Dark Worlds can play huge mind games with your opponent.  For as many pros they have, they have just as many cons. The easiest one to note is their consistency. It is hard to build a good Dark World deck that draws good. Even if you had a great Dark World deck, you still would get wrecked by Shadow-Imprisoning Mirrors, as well as Macro/Dimensional Fissure.

Tl;dr – Decks aren’t really as bad as they seem. Inzektors are pr0. Zenmaines is a problematic card. Dark Worlds have potential.

Edited by Narikku, 15 March 2012 - 11:34 AM.

[SomeGuy]

Quick noob question:
What are the odds that Monster Reborn and Dark Hole will be rebanned? They seem to jump on and off the forbidden list frequently...

[kyros27]

I doubt they will be.  Without dark hole there would have to be some pretty decent other options to punish over extension.  It's often used as a raigeki or occasionally used to destroy the opponent's field while giving you a monster in gy that is more useful there (searcher like sangan, maybe need a dark/light in gy for bls, etc).  Still, if you draw it while you have field control it becomes an insurance policy kinda in the event the opponent mounts a counter attack or it just sits in your hand doing nothing.

Also, monster reborn isn't overpowered at all.  A long time ago it was seen as one of the best spells since it gave the option to use both gys so upper deck (who decided the lists at the time) banned it while restricting coth and premature burial.  Times are a lot different now since premature burial can be abused beyond no end since its an equip spell that doesn't kill the monster it's attached to when it's removed from the field unless it was removed due to destruction (not to mention tons of other cards that can abuse it like power tool dragon).  Call of the haunted isn't that great of a viable option to reborn anymore either since s/t removal is more prevalent in this current meta than it used to be.

I'm still waiting for dmoc and tsukuyomi to come back (tsukuyomi more likely but dmocs not so overpowered anymore).  There are other cards I'd like to see come back, but I doubt they will (tribe, metamorphosis, thousand eyes restrict, mirage of nightmare, painful choice).  Some of those are pretty ridiculous so I never expect them back while others I can see potentially resurfacing depending on what comes out and how a future meta looks.

[Stomach The MachoPony]

DmOC can be abused to no end so it aint never comin back
Tsukyomi was slightly broken (once per turn Book of moonwat) but in this meta all it would do is bump worms up a tier and make big beatsticks easier to run over

[Mattimis]

Titanium Stomach, on 18 March 2012 - 04:23 AM, said:

DmOC can be abused to no end so it aint never comin back
Tsukyomi was slightly broken (once per turn Book of moonwat) but in this meta all it would do is bump worms up a tier and make big beatsticks easier to run over

I think they should do it. Balance things out a bit. =P

[kyros27]

Tsukuyomi was mainly banned for infinite trap use like her + mask of darkness + time seal (now banned too).  The fact she could flip something f/d wasn't the huge issue b/c book of moon can do that too, and it's better since it can be played easier by not using up your normal summon/set.  DMoC's big combo isn't legal anymore with dimensional fusion gone, and even though he's still awesome most decks wouldn't bother trying to work him in unless the deck was built more centered around him.  Even then there's veiler and fiendish chain now when before he was banned those didn't exist not to mention tons of other cards.

[Aeon]

DMoC should never come back. There is way too much abuse that can happen with him.

Tsukuyomi on the other hand should come back. It is remarkable how good this card would be for the game, which is why it probably never will come back.

[Sho Shinjo]

kyros27, on 18 March 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

DMoC's big combo isn't legal anymore with dimensional fusion gone, and even though he's still awesome most decks wouldn't bother trying to work him in unless the deck was built more centered around him.

Sho Shinjo, on 14 February 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

D.D.R. + Hidden Armory = Infinite DMoC.

Banish DMoC in any way (from Grave, Sarco, drop him and have it die, whatever works). Then play Hidden Armory, get D.D.R. and activate it to SS DMoC. Then get back Hidden Armory.

If it dies, repeat. Endlessly.

So what if Veiler and Fiendish Chain exist? It's not like you have only 1 D.D.R. or 1 Hidden Armory available either. The problem with DMoC is that, given the current cardpool, it's way too easy to recycle, and more often than not, you'll DMoC before they can Veiler or Chain it, and even if they do, it's not a permanent solution to it. And then you still have to deal with its massive ATK.

It doesn't help that, after being SS'd with the D.D.R. + Hidden Armory combo, he's completely immune to removal: sure, you can take it off the field. He'll get banished, so you just Hidden Armory again, D.D.R. again and recover Hidden Armory again, so removal is useless.

That counters exist for a card or combo doesn't make that card or combo less threatening. Following that logic, they could unban Chaos Emperor Dragon because you can Veiler it, they should unban Raigeki because you can Magic Jammer it, they should unban Premature Burial because we have MST unlimited and they should unban Makyura because you can use Prohibition or Psy-Blocker before it hits the Grave.

And regarding Reborn and Dark Hole, I honestly don't know why they haven't banned them again yet. Reborn can win games by itself, and Dark Hole is mass removal without a cost or activation condition. The fact that they feel balanced on this meta is an indicator of how messed up things are nowadays: Dark Hole and Monster Reborn are NOT balanced, at all. They should be banned.

Fun thing is, someone once said "I'd rather have 2 Torrentials than Dark Hole back", and now we have both xD

[Cyberlancer]

Considering the current Meta, Sho, we need the massive removal.  Inzektors and Wind-Up can set up amazing plays.  Wind-ups swarm and Inzektors kind of can.  Dark Hole provides a sort of buffer against these.  Monster Reborn works for when you seem to be lacking resources.  Yes, these cards are a bit overpowered, but IMO they are simply buffers to help even out the game against the top tier triad.

[Sho Shinjo]

Cyberlancer, on 19 March 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

Considering the current Meta, Sho, we need the massive removal.  Inzektors and Wind-Up can set up amazing plays.  Wind-ups swarm and Inzektors kind of can.  Dark Hole provides a sort of buffer against these.  Monster Reborn works for when you seem to be lacking resources.  Yes, these cards are a bit overpowered, but IMO they are simply buffers to help even out the game against the top tier triad.

"A bit" overpowered? The strongest revival card in the game and the second strongest mass removal card in the game are "a bit" overpowered? xD

Also, what I've said countless times on other places/topics: They really aren't a "buffer". Just think about it. Sure, you have Reborn and Dark Hole to turn the game, but so do them.

Whenever you add an overpowered generic card to the game, the only thing you do is add staples to decklists without really balancing anything. Heck, the top tier benefits A LOT more from Reborn and Dark Hole than any of the lower tiers can, because it means they can clear the field and then push with their unstoppable swarm, and/or Reborn the exact piece they need to perform that swarm. Now isn't as balanced as you thought huh? It's like people saying that they should unban Pot of Greed because it would help them against the best Decks, while ignoring completely the boost those same Decks would receive from it.

Dark Hole, Raigeki, Monster Reborn, Harpie's Feather Duster, Giant Trunade, Heavy Storm, Pot of Greed, Graceful Charity, Painful Choice, Confiscation, The Forceful Sentry and Delinquent Duo are cards that can be used in any Deck to great effect, so adding them back to the game will only make the top builds stronger, while the less powerful builds will still have trouble with them. Ban them all and the balance is the same.

The only one I see as a necessary evil is Heavy Storm, because the "set 5, go" format was really, really annoying to deal with and because Feather Duster won't hurt you xD That and the fact we don't really have viable backrow clearing options, while we have hundreds of monster removal cards. Sure, MST, Dust Tornado, Breaker, Lyla and the upcoming Night Shot are really good cards, but then you have to devote 3, 4, even 5 slots (or more) to single-target Spell/Trap removal, which is bad for a Deck's consistency. Monsters can die way more easily, to those set backrows, to other monsters in battle and to over9000 monster removal effects, but Spells and Traps are a lot harder to deal with, hence Storm being a necessary evil. Also, the fact that Spells and Traps doesn't "float" like monsters do: you surely won't mind using Dark Hole on your Sangan, and you probably don't care losing some good stuff if you can Avarice it back or drop DAD/JD/BLS after that, but you probably will worry about having to Storm a Warning or a Torrential. Sure, you can use chainables, but they aren't available all the time.

[SyncTempest]

I believe are going to get hit hard. If they hit Dragonfly, the deck would lose a lot of power. Dragonfly is almost like Agent Earth, when there's just one, the deck gets crippled badly. Limiting Hornet won't do that much to Inzektors, but Dragonfly is basically the heart of the deck. I'm not sure how a minority plays Inzektors, but the I mostly see the loop. Now, Inzektors are probably the stronger deck there is right now.

Lightrays I think can really help Agents. Lightray Sorcerer can return what Hyperion banish for has effect. Also, you can return Earth was Light of Redemption. Lightrays are going to be a problem, they're going to make more.

[Sho Shinjo]

I think we all agree on Dragonfly being the problem on Inzektors, but hitting Hornet as well would make the deck vulnerable to D.D. Crow. Still, if only one has to be hit, it needs to be Dragonfly.

I don't really see Lightrays becoming a problem yet. They'd need to make something really broken. So far, Sorcerer is the only good one, while the others aren't bad either, but not as good as Sorcerer. They're decent splashes in some builds: Diabolos and Daedalus are great in LS, for example. The latter is actually good in any LIGHT build as well.

Sorcerer gives new life to Agents, yes. Sorcerer, paired with Dimensional Alchemist and Cards from the Sky can give you a rather awesome draw/recycling engine. Sorcerer also helps with Shine Balls, returning them to the Deck after being banished by an effect, making the second and third copies of Venus live.

Although TBH, Agents just need a second copy of Earth. That plus Sorc will make them consistent again.

Several things on this format were hit harder than they should have, so I'm hoping they leave them alone (or at least ease the restriction) next format.

[SyncTempest]

They should limit Hornet, and if they do, they only semi it. Dragonfly is the real problem. I play Inzektors, it's like they have barely weakness. I faced a lot deck with Inzektors and kept overpowering them. I was playing my brother which he had an Evol deck. I have to say the card that can stand a real good chance against Inzektors is Evolzar Solda. I have to include Dolkka, but Solda is 2600 ATK, when it has Xyz material it cannot be destroyed by card effects, and if a monster is special summoned, you can detach a material to destroy it.
I couldn't really get pass Solda. Hornet wouldn't work and If I Special Summon, the monster would be destroyed.

I actually think Lightray Grepher might the best. Lightray Grepher basically sets up combos for all the Lightrays. Grepher can help Sorcerer get on the field. A good combo with Grepher is Light of Redemption, I would say D.D.R. but that too much minusing from you hand.

Another thing I have to mention, Dino Rabbit, it had a good chance of not existing. The Evolzars could have easily had said "2 Level 4 FIRE Dinosaur-Type Monsters." I haven't seen much Wind-Up decks topping anymore.

Edited by SyncTempest, 06 May 2012 - 03:05 PM.