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Forbidden & Limited List Discussion


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#41 Guest_Zero34_* Guests XCB

Guest_Zero34_*

Posted 21 November 2005 - 10:18 PM

D.D. Assailant = HIGHLY likely
Reinforcement of the Army = semi is enough
Cyber Dragon (not likely) = possibly...doubt it though
Spirit Reaper (also not likely) = very doubtful
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#42 Guest_XXXPlizit_* Guests XCB

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Posted 22 November 2005 - 03:18 AM

D.D. Assailant = Most likely.
Reinforcement of the Army = Possible, since Warrior Support is heavy.
Cyber Dragon = Most likely not, unles it has proven to be abusive. Goblin Elites, currently in some decks, are used.
Spirit Reaper = Nah. With people running trample like Beast Decks or even Airknights, I highly doubt it.

= = =

If CED does come out, a LOT of cards are going to be banned just to ensure that he doesn't get too abusive.

Then again, if Konami/UDE decides to bring it back to the game, they do have to realize possible damage to their reputation. Remember Duo's uplift? People hated Konami/UDE for that.
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#43 Guest_Zero34_* Guests XCB

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Posted 22 November 2005 - 04:21 PM

CED wont come back

there was a reason that the first ban list came out right after this card was released, it was the immediate cause to the ban list. thats how powerful it was

i mean, massive removal, and massive is not really understood by more newer players. CED has a built in Dark Hole, Heavy Storm, and Card Destruction (without the redraw). not to mention its built in burn, BEWD stats, and ridiculously easy special summon requirements

its broken period
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#44 Guest_XXXPlizit_* Guests XCB

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 03:07 AM

...not to mention it has a built-in Coffin-Seller + more burn *coughcough*
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#45 Guest_Zero34_* Guests XCB

Guest_Zero34_*

Posted 23 November 2005 - 08:48 AM

and there you go

even a built in coffin seller

i mean, anybody who thought that BLS > CED in the new format isnt exactly the most informed person

CED gives you such ridiculous net advantage manipulation that its not even funny. he would utterly destroy the new format...then again, he destroys any format

emergency provisions should come off of the semi limited list. it doesnt do anything dangerous anymore..

meta to 2, virus to 2, and book of taiyou to....3
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#46 Guest_XXXPlizit_* Guests XCB

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 01:39 PM

Yeah. Emergency Provisions is only damgerous because of Mirage, but with Mirage banned, it doesn't have meaning...unless people run Decrees in 3's and run a crapload of chainable cards like Waboku or Compulsory.

With the fact that the list for BOTH traditional AND advanced being different (see MoF and compare the amount), I see no reason to have Provisions to 2.

The reason why many thought BLS > CED was mainly because IT WAS LEGALLY PLAYED LONGER! CED immediately hit the ban after the Oct 2k4 list while BLS was still ramping 1 year ahead until the recent list bashed it out of legal play. However, that does not mean that neither cards should come back.

CED itself destroys ANY format, even traditional. CED can be an instant kill at almost any time, either by attack or by effect. Some deem it's worse than Yata at some aspects. BLS actually gives players a chance to respond, but then again, it is still too powerful to even play.

= = =

Meta to 2 = somewhat logical.
Virus to 2 = Might not be a good idea due to OTK with Exchange of the Spirit.
Taiyou to 3 = Yeah.

However, all at once = bad just cuz Mill decks might start abusing yet again.
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#47 Nin Ancient One The Missing Nin of XCF 5826 posts 0.00 XCB

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 01:53 PM

I personally don't think the Envoy's are coming off now, just because of Shadow of Infinity producing Demise and Ruin for us.

But anyway, I can really see D.D. Assailant being restricted soon, it's a possibility but I don't believe it'll happen in the long run.

Because we DO have D.D. Survivor, Drillroid, BTH, and Mystic LV2 to counter them, so, who knows?

Next ban cards I believe that can come off:

Mirror Force
Painful Choice (THIS is a maybe, I know it'll make a brand new Chaos for us again, but it also allows other decks like Horus, Exodia, Manticore Beast, Fiend, etc. Work the way they should.)
Tribe-Infecting Virus

Give your thoughts.
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#48 Guest_PaladinofChaos_* Guests XCB

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Posted 23 November 2005 - 03:26 PM

(sweating with shakyknees knowing that flaming is about to come)
Well, Let's have CED come back. If you don't kill you opponent during that move, then your opponent will kill you. Also paying 1000 lifepoints to get rid of all cards including your own is kind of a good thing, but if you think about it, the damage does add upp after a while. Because then there a new kind of deck including Infinite Cards/Stall Cards/and CED. That will then kill the a new fromat. I could say that it will never come off the list, but then again, never say never. Because anything is possible no matter how low the odds are.
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#49 Guest_Zero34_* Guests XCB

Guest_Zero34_*

Posted 23 November 2005 - 03:50 PM

what? what are you talking about?

there is no "balance" in CED. CED makes pot of greed look like a bad card, that is how powerful it is.

Infinite Cards/Stall Cards/and CED Deck? you wanna explain?


and CED wont come back unless we got a ton of cards that make it more survivable. which...isnt happening. we abuse cards like CED too much. it would be a staple. as weird as that sounds, i will almost guarentee that if CED and there was a shonen jump, every deck would run one CED.
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#50 Guest_XXXPlizit_* Guests XCB

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Posted 24 November 2005 - 03:00 AM

Keep in notice that making CED harder to use sin't gonna cut it. here's the possible scenario:

-If they hammer all the lights and darks, then Sorceror, Necrofear, and those other light/dark RFG summoning monsters are going to be useless.

-If they DO ban cards that benefit the deck that CED is in, then it makes it even tougher to counterreact.

-Banning Jinzo or Decree (ensures 100% CED effect success) will benefit CED even more now that it can blend in with burn very well.

There are more scenarios of drawbacks just 'weakening' CED. Konami was tired enough to try 'weakening' BLS, but that didn't work (personal preferences vary on BLS banning). CED requires hety work, though it seems almost impossible to do.
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#51 Drakul Members Sir Post-a-lot 429 posts 0.00 XCB

Drakul

Posted 24 November 2005 - 04:12 AM

the next cards that should go on the restricted list... good choice of topics.


Cyber dragon family.. All of'em, dragon, end and twin.

DD Assailant.

spirit reaper.

command knight

giant trunade

horus level 6 and 8

silent swordsman (all of them)

mystic swordsman 2 (which is basically sasuke samauri with a bigger brother, if I remember the card right)

witch of the black forest (god I miss that card)


semi restrict:

Milennium Scorpion

Ancient Gear Golem

magician of faith

reload

BEUD (once it's released)




These are just my ideas, of course people who love playing and abusing multiple copies of what I feel are extremely broken or mostly broken won't agree.

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#52 Guests Guests 0.00 XCB

Posted 24 November 2005 - 09:04 AM

i want them to unban mirage you have to discard randomly so its not broken
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#53 Nin Ancient One The Missing Nin of XCF 5826 posts 0.00 XCB

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Posted 24 November 2005 - 09:43 AM

spirit reaper.

command knight

giant trunade

horus level 6 and 8

silent swordsman (all of them)

mystic swordsman 2 (which is basically sasuke samauri with a bigger brother, if I remember the card right)

witch of the black forest (god I miss that card)

semi restrict:

Milennium Scorpion

Ancient Gear Golem

magician of faith

reload

BEUD (once it's released)
These are just my ideas, of course people who love playing and abusing multiple copies of what I feel are extremely broken or mostly broken won't agree.[/b]


Dude, all of these make no sense. You must really get your ass handed to you by THE most non-used cards atm.

It's funny how you want Trunade at 1? All it does is bounce S/T that can be CHAINED.

Command Knight? WTF?! Dude, why would they restrict her to 1? Seriously.

All she does is a 400+ for Warriors, has a Base Attack of 1600 (on the field) and can't create as dangerous of a lock as Captain.

Horus 6 and 8, wow, you must really hate these because they don't deserve restriction.

LV8 can only be summoned via Level Modulation or LV6's effect, AND can be stopped by traps or effect monsters like oh I dunno the highly ran list of them:

Bottomless Trap Hole
D.D. Assailant
D.D. Warrior Lady
Exiled Force
Sakuretsu Armor
Torrential Tribute

etc.

Silent Swordsman?! Dude, they can't even compare to the power of LV8's ability. Only thing they have is RotA for Speed really, they will NEVER be restricted.

Okay, MSLV2, let's see, only smart duelists run 1 in their deck, what is the point again of restricting a card that people ONLY use in 1's? None.

Plus, it'd screw up the LV family set.

Witch, hahahahahahah you had me going there. It MIGHT come off someday, but atm if it did this format would crumble.

Sangan is better then nothing so deal with it. If we got Witch you'd be able to Search:

Breaker the Magical Warrior
D.D. Survivor
Goblin Elite Attack Force
Jinzo
Mobius the Frost Monarch
etc.

It can search practically almost every monster that everyone runs atm, or will run.

Okay, why semi-restrict a 2 tribute, 3000 ATK monster that CAN'T be special summoned and only has a trample and to stop s/t WHEN IT ATTACKS not all the time. (most people think this)

the whole "This card cannot be Special Summoned." part ruined it, because people were hoping on making a Grease deck around it and Ancient Gear Beast.

Millenium Scorpion, wow.... just wow. WHO runs this card? And explain how it's so deadly to semi-restrict?

The only things you posted up that made kind've sense was the Cyber Dragon family and DDA.

Cyber Dragon is being used in all sorts of decks, Cyber Twin and End are being used in Cyber Stein OTK, and as tech with Cyber Stein in some of the mainstream decks.

They ONLY restrict/semi-restrict/ban a card when it REALLY needs to be, not just cause you want them to be. ;/
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#54 Guest_Zero34_* Guests XCB

Guest_Zero34_*

Posted 24 November 2005 - 12:34 PM

well, nin basically covered it, but ill say it again

firstly, didnt i just explain how broken mirage is? the whole reason why its broken is becasue the advance duelist gets around the discard function. there are those cards call MST, Dust Tornado, Emergency Provisions that can be responded tot eh entering of a phase before mirage goes off so that you can draw all 4 cards and then destroy it

mirage makes morphing jar looks bad. that is how good it is. in EVERY deck ran competitively this card would be run if you wanna win


Cyber dragon: end and twin are fusions that are way harder to get out than TER. cyber dragon is not going on the list because there are plenty of ways to control them. like...trap cards and high attac power monsters

DD Assailant: okay, that is possible. i expect a restrict to 1

spirit reaper: one card...Level Limit - Area Type A. two of these side decked will utterly massacre this card. problem solved. good ol konami

command knight: ....i wont even go here

giant trunade: hmm, lets see, -1 advantage and it can be chained to

horus level 6 and 8: subjectable to trap destruction. powerful, but not abused

silent swordsman (all of them): just no, its slower than spell canceller

mystic swordsman 2 (which is basically sasuke samauri with a bigger brother, if I remember the card right): restrict a card that is ran in 1s?

witch of the black forest (god I miss that card): never. it is potentially the best monster searcher in the game


semi restrict:

Milennium Scorpion: yeah...sure....

Ancient Gear Golem: people run this card?

magician of faith: too abused. its possible with t spirit at 1, but i doubt it

reload: -1 advantage. no

BEUD (once it's released): huh?


so yeah.
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#55 Guests Guests 0.00 XCB

Posted 24 November 2005 - 12:42 PM

DD Assailant: Maybe semi restrict it
spirit reaper: one card...Level Limit - Area Type A. two of these side decked will utterly massacre this card. problem solved. good ol konami
It can maybe go to 2 but he's not too powerful.

command knight: ....i wont even go here
It stays at 3 why would it restrict
giant trunade: hmm, lets see, -1 advantage and it can be chained to
uhh no even with the new treasure map card
horus level 6 and 8: subjectable to trap destruction. powerful, but not abused
it can be killed no its lv 8 anyways

silent swordsman (all of them): just no, its slower than spell canceller
no you dont get spells etheir
mystic swordsman 2 (which is basically sasuke samauri with a bigger brother, if I remember the card right): restrict a card that is ran in 1s?
no its not that good

witch of the black forest (god I miss that card): never. it is potentially the best monster searcher in the game
you can search basically 60% of the monsters

semi restrict:

Milennium Scorpion: yeah...sure....
noone uses this

Ancient Gear Golem: people run this card?
wtf people have 3 for some reason

magician of faith: too abused. its possible with t spirit at 1, but i doubt it
it can stay at one its abused with spirits
reload: -1 advantage. no
no they have better cards "Mallet"
BEUD (once it's released): huh?
wtf why?
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#56 Drakul Members Sir Post-a-lot 429 posts 0.00 XCB

Drakul

Posted 24 November 2005 - 01:08 PM

DD Assailant: Maybe semi restrict it
spirit reaper: one card...Level Limit - Area Type A. two of these side decked will utterly massacre this card. problem solved. good ol konami
It can maybe go to 2 but he's not too powerful.

command knight: ....i wont even go here
It stays at 3 why would it restrict
giant trunade: hmm, lets see, -1 advantage and it can be chained to
uhh no even with the new treasure map card
horus level 6 and 8: subjectable to trap destruction. powerful, but not abused
it can be killed no its lv 8 anyways

silent swordsman (all of them): just no, its slower than spell canceller
no you dont get spells etheir
mystic swordsman 2 (which is basically sasuke samauri with a bigger brother, if I remember the card right): restrict a card that is ran in 1s?
no its not that good

witch of the black forest (god I miss that card): never. it is potentially the best monster searcher in the game
you can search basically 60% of the monsters

semi restrict:

Milennium Scorpion: yeah...sure....
noone uses this

Ancient Gear Golem: people run this card?
wtf people have 3 for some reason

magician of faith: too abused. its possible with t spirit at 1, but i doubt it
it can stay at one its abused with spirits
reload: -1 advantage. no
no they have better cards "Mallet"
BEUD (once it's released): huh?
wtf why?



Okay, as I figured, the people who can't win without certain cards went off.


You're trying to say horus level 6 and 8 aren't abused? THEY'RE IN EVERY FREAKING DECK I'VE FACED SINCE THE BAN LIST EXCEPT MAYBE 3. Yeah it's real nice that traps can stop them, except that anyone who has a brain and uses it uses royal decree as well. Oops, there go the traps. morons.


Trunade, reason I say restrict is because personally, I like to use it to get mil scorp out and attack the first time or two. I've also seen other people use it to get their big monsters on the field safely, including horus 6 and 8, most of the monarchs except mobius, the swordsmans, the magicians, chaos sorcerer, etc and so forth. Yeah you lose a card. But also, your opponent loses the capability to stop high level normal or special summons.


Command knight....


Let's see here. Marauding captain + command knight + a forces. I've faced this combination many times and it's very very difficult to get past, especially in the opening moves of a game. I refuse to run cheap broken crap like the cyber dragon family, so that particular powered up swarm is really nasty.


mystic swordsman2 I've seen in 2's and 3's in quite a few tournament winning decks, so don't go around saying "good players only use one anyway", since that is VERY obviously not true. Hell, there's a few #yvd decks that use multiple mystics and use them QUITE well. And quite irritatingly, completely and totally demolishing the point of quite a few decks.


As for milennium scorpion, I use it. I use it VERY well. I have a deck that's 14-3 in r/l tournaments based around mil scorp. I like to abuse both trunade and royal decree with it. Ever been attacked by a 7000 attack monster before? 8000? It dosen't take much to get up there. Try thinking instead of reacting, and if you all ran more than just cookie cutter netdeck crap, you'd see how well it could work. I also use it with quite a few life gain cards, so that I can abuse 3 solemn judgements without worrying about dying and with stopping cards like enemy controller and brain control.


I have YET to see level limit A in use. and that's with many many spirit reaper abusers in the game.

Reload is actually, when you look at what it CAN do, a fairly dangerous card. You lose one, obv, but you gain an entire new hand. I tend to use it in the first draw or two if I don't have what I'm looking for, and 95% of the time end up with exactly what I'm looking for.


The cyber dragon family is broken and heavily abused. I've seen it used with fusion gate, poly, and cyber stein, and just because YOU may only use it one way, that dosen't mean it isn't either broken or abused. Let's face it... Cyber Twin, Megamorph is REALLY REALLY nasty and is pretty much gg in quite a few circumstances.



Log the next 5 or 6 duels you go into, and look over the log. You'll see that what I'm saying in a lot of this is very, very true.
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#57 Guest_Zero34_* Guests XCB

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Posted 24 November 2005 - 03:19 PM

okay, lets see

Horus Lv 6/8: i rarely have problems with this card because even if they lock down spell and trap, ive got DDWL, DDA, IFL, Exiled, etc. i do see your point though...and you make me wanna build a horus deck

giant trunade isnt bad, i use to run 1 or 2 in every deck, but then ive found it ahrd to make room. ill reconsider leaving giant trunade out, but i still cant see it restricted. semi limited is a long shot too.

smashing ground the command knight. and its not a lock. you can still attack maruading captain...

mystic swordsman in 3s? i would really like to see a deck list of that

youve destroyed 12 monsters with one millenium scorpion? wow...thats...believable
i mean, i find it hard to believe that even with solem judgments, you can keep your monster alive for 12 turns without it being smashing ground'd, enemy controller'd, dark hole'd, DDA'd, DDWL'd, or etc away. one enemy controll will kill it because its defense doesnt change. and if spells or monsters wont do it, there are plenty of armors around

level limit A is a new card, of course its not gonna be used well yet. its a side deck material card

what is your deck size when you use reload? just curious. its just never worked for me which is why i hate it so much.

cyber twin and double attack card (megamorph, limiter, etc) is definitely insane. i have a deck like that too. the best way to counter that OTK is kuribo. but, because i have never actually seen that deck played against me, i havent side decked against it.

well, i have decided to add horus and cyber twin dragon deck to my build list
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#58 Drakul Members Sir Post-a-lot 429 posts 0.00 XCB

Drakul

Posted 24 November 2005 - 08:25 PM

youve destroyed 12 monsters with one millenium scorpion? wow...thats...believable
i mean, i find it hard to believe that even with solem judgments, you can keep your monster alive for 12 turns without it being smashing ground'd, enemy controller'd, dark hole'd, DDA'd, DDWL'd, or etc away. one enemy controll will kill it because its defense doesnt change. and if spells or monsters wont do it, there are plenty of armors around


It's actually not that difficult. I also run, in addition to the solemns, 2 magic drains and 2 jammers. not to mention that, as far as it can be done, I also try my hardest to abuse swarm of locusts, which, while swords, feint plan or threatening roar are down are actually pretty easy to abuse. There go the BTH's, armors, torrentials, a lot of enemy controllers, things of that nature. People also use their DDA's and DDWL's pretty quickly, and I try not to get mil scorp out until I'm certain that they're all used up.


Dark Hole, Smashing ground, brain control typically get the jammer/drain treatment. It may not be the most handy set up but so far it;s worked a lot of the time.


==============================================================================


smashing ground the command knight. and its not a lock. you can still attack maruading captain...


==============================================================================

yeah IF you drew one, which isn;t guaranteed. meanwhile, until you do, it's still a bit of a lock unless you have a higher than what,... 2200 atk monster in hand that you can play? Not much of that available.


==============================================================================

what is your deck size when you use reload? just curious. its just never worked for me which is why i hate it so much.

==============================================================================

I run 42-44 cards in every deck. Never more, rarely less, but it has happened. But I've used reload to very very good effect many many times, too many to not consider it a very good card, esp since it's also a quickplay spell.
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#59 Guest_Zero34_* Guests XCB

Guest_Zero34_*

Posted 24 November 2005 - 10:59 PM

royal decrees could still be a problem, but i doubt that

i still find 12 monsters to be almost impossible. i mean...ridiculously incredible if it actually happened. if it does, i bow down to you

*bows*

and maruading only has 2000. which is still a lot, meh

okay, that deck size makes more sense. because if you could fit all of those solemns, jammers, reload, giant, and etc all in a 40 card deck i would be quite amazed. reasonable size for those cards

interesting. a lot of new ideas have revealed themself to me in this page..


but still, that millenium scorpion deck of yours intrigues me. you duel YVD? i cant host, but i can hamachi. id really like to duel you
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#60 Living_Sacrifice Ancient One Master of the Spam 1423 posts 0.00 XCB

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Posted 24 November 2005 - 11:04 PM

I like the ban list! It helps me improve the way i think about how to improve me main deck. Or it gives me ideas to make new decks. Overall the ban list IMO is one of the best thing going in YuGiOh right now. Im glad they came up with it!
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